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About Men, Women and What’s in Between Them

Rav Michael Laitman's, PhD Talk with Nir Navon, Hagit Talem and Shelly Peretz
May 19, 2008

N. Navon: Hello to all you viewers. Thank you for joining us for a discussion about men, woman and what’s between them. We have Rav Michael Laitman, PhD with us in the studio. Hello Rav Laitman. And Hagit Telem, Projects manager for Kabbalah Today. And also with us is Shelly Peretz, a writer for Kabbalah Today magazine.

The subject of couple relations as we know is a subject that very much occupies many of us and we had many responses in reference to the many articles that we wrote in the newspaper and magazine. So let’s now bring up some of these things in order to clarify and discuss them.

M. Laitman: I haven’t heard or read these things, so first of all you will need to tell me what is being spoken of exactly and we’ll see about the answers.

Sh. Peretz: There’s an issue that usually bothers people both before getting married, (finding a partner), and in a way also after marriage. It is the issue of the game in the relationship. Usually each one has to feel that the partner is playing with him a little, that he is a little hard to get, that he is not always available, and that he doesn’t completely belong to the other. It is more apparent in the courting period, but even in a long term marriage you can find it in some form. Personally, it interests me why it is impossible to simply be real and say, "I am yours and you are mine and our love will bloom forever."

M. Laitman: That is very simple. We find ourselves in a concealed world. Why concealed? Because all of the beauty that is discovered comes especially from the concealed world. Pay attention to the extent of using make up, (hiding) because it is in the nature of a woman. This game is a natural one, and is also in the animate level among animals. It is within nature. We didn’t invent it. Disclosure is in concealment.

Thus Kabbalah is like that. The Creator himself is in concealment and is revealed only after we court him. We need to want Him, to actually have to run after Him, and ask that He be revealed. And then to the extent that we want disclosure, to the exact extent that we have really desire only for Him, (I only want Him) then to that extent He is revealed. And also not exactly. The next moment He is concealed. Why? Because if I become filled with His disclosure, what will I get from this? So, I again need to be hungry as it happens after a meal, after every pleasure, so that again, I will have a desire.

But when we arrive at disclosures in spirituality, each time we need to discover a stronger desire, meaning to want to love Him even more and reveal Him more. And so then all the concealments and disclosures come to us like rungs of a ladder until we come to a place where we finally open everything. All the concealments remain and all the disclosures remain since in spirituality they remain one against the other and strengthen each other. Meaning also, at the time when I completely disclose the Creator, I still maintain all His previous concealments. And so my love for Him, the connection between us is eternal.

However, if I discover Him and this disclosure erases the concealments, then I also don’t feel the disclosure. For example, I want very much to drink, and I drink and then don’t want any more. So what? I have no desire for water and no longer get pleasure from the water. I already felt it within and it disappeared. The pleasure extinguished the desire.

It is the same with a partner. They disclose one to the other. If it is complete disclosure then it is tasteless. As you said, I am his and he is mine, and with that, it’s as if there is nothing.

H. Telem: We must continue to play games?

M. Laitman: Yes, we must play games. And that’s why all the couple relations in our world are failing. We don’t know how to hold on to these things so that they become rejuvenated. Because without that we won’t feel pleasure since you can feel pleasure only in the rejuvenated desire. Thus it must be taught to all the young couples and those who begin to meet each other how to really be knowledgeable in this. Meaning, to understand what can be discovered in each other and to complement one another. If they do this, they can maintain relationships as on the first day and during their whole life.

Sh. Peretz: So actually we are always wondering why we are not open and real and everything, but you are saying that we don’t need to do that.

M. Laitman: It’s not that we don’t need it but we need to know in what way to maintain it and to play with nature. It is not that I play with the other, but I play with my nature.

Sh. Peretz: What does that mean?

M. Laitman: If I love my partner, and I want my love for him to remain, I constantly have to want to find in him new things and him in me.

H. Telem: To rejuvenate.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Sh. Peretz: But how do you do it? After a while you will know the person.

M. Laitman: Stop taking an interest in each other. This is true with the biggest pleasures. To the extent that you receive a pleasure, immediately the desire to receive is appeased and then the pleasure disappears.

H. Telem:To think of what I say to him? To think what the results of that are?

M. Laitman: The simple technique to use within the family is something very personal. Both of them should understand this principle, which actually is the principle of Kabbalah, of nature, i.e., how to reach limitless pleasure. And then there is the feeling of eternal life. All of life ends because we are already tired of wanting to taste something and then immediately after that feeling nothing. And again running and tasting, and understanding that there’s nothing there. And in doing this we simply get tired and thus life finishes.

Thus, coverings that we put one on the other, what we call screens in the wisdom of Kabbalah, are there only to reveal in concealment. Also the stronger part in the Book of Zohar is called “book of the modest,” i.e., how to make things humble and through this to disclose (since a book is disclosure.) For example, the disclosure of concealment (Migilat Esther) is to reveal through concealment. The entire Torah talks about this.Otherwise we don’t even get to the level of animals. Animals have this game before they have the connection between them. But afterwards they separate; very simple. If it wasn’t for the connection according to nature to raise the young, then they would exit this connection.

H. Telem: So to simply re-discover the partner each time and try to find something there.

M. Laitman: To discover him as rejuvenated and also help him discover something new in you.

People should be aware of this. It’s not so simple. It is really an art. The wisdom of Kabbalah explains to a person how the Creator plays with us. It is written that the entire creation is the Creator playing with a whale. He plays with creation. The whale symbolizes the creation. So it’s a game and an essential thing.

H. Telem: If we go backwards a little before the couple gets married…

M. Laitman: Then of course it isn’t lacking. There are many opportunities for games since they understand that without them they won’t connect to each other.

H. Telem: They need the games.

M. Laitman: At that time, yes. It is within us from the side of nature.

H. Telem:Let’s say that they arrange a partner for me who is a pilot, or doctor, etc, but as to the physical attraction, he repulses me. According to my intelligence I know that he is suitable for me and will be a good partner. But what about simple, sexual, physical attraction?

M. Laitman: It is very important. If the partner is physically repulsive it is impossible to overlook it. The Torah also talks about it and it is forbidden to do it. It is forbidden to go against nature.

Sh. Peretz: You wouldn’t advise it even though this person has exactly all the attributes that I have been looking for all my life but I am just not attracted to him?

M. Laitman: No, I wouldn’t advise it. So his qualities are all right and sometimes you even feel some kind of lofty feelings, and then afterwards you fall into regular life. If the person near you repulses you, there is nothing you can do.

H. Telem: What do you do if you are already married and with time things happen, and the wife doesn’t attract you any more? We see that this happens. Then there is betrayal.

M. Laitman: Betrayal is caused by other reasons. It is possible to love the wife and to want some novelty. It comes from completely different things. It doesn’t have anything to do with loving or not loving. Women can’t understand it.

Sh. Peretz: What does betrayal come from? Is it a disease from the times?

M. Laitman: It is not a disease. First of all if we take all ancient cultures, it is not even called betrayal. The man would go to the market and buy a woman. I am not taking about it as an affliction. It’s culture.

H. Telem: It was accepted.

M. Laitman: Also, with us it was also accepted and nothing was wrong with it. If he was rich, and could buy another wife, then he’d buy another one. This wasn’t because he didn’t have a connection with the other’s body. This isn’t mentioned.

This pertains to the nature of a man that has an attraction to things that are concealed, that he is lacking. If he is always looking and doesn’t find some renewals with whoever he is with, then unfortunately that it what happens.

H. Telem: Does it happen also with a woman or only a man?

M. Laitman: In our times with the ego that is growing, also woman are beginning to depart from their nature. According to her nature she is attracted to her man and wants to be connected to him and in that she finds satisfaction. In modern times this strength, this connection is also disappearing. It could be that we say this because of our society.

H. Telem: We are influenced.

M. Laitman: Yes, it influences the woman in this way.

N. Navon: If I understood correctly, Kabbalah sides with the issue of unfaithfulness (jokingly). It’s natural; it’s OK.

M. Laitman: No, No. It does say that it’s part of man’s nature. It doesn’t have to be seen as betrayal. Man is attracted to revealing something, so to it’s a matter of revealing pleasure. We shouldn’t see sex as something other than a kind of pleasure. Basically we are the desire to enjoy, i.e. food, sex, children, science, beauty, music, and all kind of things that are pleasant.

Thus in this pleasure man needs to find some kind of renewal, a deficiency. So for food I need a deficiency. If I am very hungry I will eat everything because from each thing I will at least feel some fulfillment. It’s the same thing in this example. If I have nothing else, then of course it’s all right but if there is a deficiency, a man simply develops additional deficiencies since it seems to him that he can get bigger pleasures. For example, instead of getting something simple to eat, I decide if it’s possible to order something special. Or I travel. Can’t I stay close to where I live? It’s the same thing in these examples.

It’s worthwhile to bring these things to the level of the desire for pleasure, and the pleasure that fills the desire. And then we won’t look at it as something special.

H. Telem: As a crime.

M. Laitman: Yes, crime or not, but not as something special. It is incorporated in our desire to enjoy.

H. Telem: But is that the biggest desire with the biggest pleasure?

M. Laitman: Yes, it is indeed the biggest desire, i.e. the desire for sex. This is the way nature arranged it because our continuation depends on that. And if a person had no desire for that, then maybe he wouldn’t even connect to it. Animals go according to their inner programming. Besides that, in spirituality it is the highest pleasure, the pleasure of Zivug (mating), i.e., the Zivug with the Creator. It is not a pleasure through all kinds of external coverings.

It is said that of all the spiritual pleasure only a small spark of it descended down to our world. And that small spark clothes itself in all kinds of coverings, in food, in sex, in children, in sweet, in hot, in all kinds of things. In things that seem to me that there is pleasure in them. What awakens the strongest in me, according to man’s nature, is the pleasure of sex.

N. Navon: I would like to understand what you said. Again, a man who is unfaithful to his wife needs to go to her and say, “Dear wife, what do you want from me? That’s nature. There is the desire to enjoy and there is pleasure, there’s a match, and that’s it. It’s not me, but it is nature.”

M. Laitman: No, no. Again, if you are talking only from the side of nature, then of course it will happen this way and exactly like that, he can go to his wife and explain. But we connect one with the other with long term relationships of Zivug (mating), in order to raise children, to marry them off, in order to build ourselves a home, and a family. When he is there, a person is sheltered from the world, and falls on the arms of his relatives if God forbid something happens to him, and when he is old they take care of him as well as his partner who supports him. We need this family nest. It is very, very much embedded into nature. Look from how far back it comes, from the olden days in all nations and cultures.

This is what happens in our days when all this has been ruined and it takes on a cynical manner, as you just described. This is a general malfunction of the generation, as we find ourselves in a general crisis.

H. Telem: So a person who searches to enter the spirituality, concerning his partner, he knows what motivates him and then he also calms these desires.

M. Laitman: That’s already something else whether he calms or doesn’t calm his desires, but he is aware of what is happening to him.

H. Telem: And then the desire weakens a little, since he examines himself from the side?

M. Laitman: Not necessarily. It is written that at the time of the ruin of the temple, the taste of the coming stays in those who work for God, that is, especially those who yearn for spirituality and want to get closer to bigger pleasures, who want to receive them for the sake of bestowal, and widen their Kelim (vessels). And especially in those is felt both the size of the animate pleasure, and also the size of the spiritual pleasure. They become more sensitive to everything. Their Kelim become wide scale.

H. Telem: Let’s say I began some kind of spiritual path. Will that improve my relationship with my partner? Since I know these things I will try to discover him each day as new or try to find positive things.

M. Laitman: It teaches you how to rejuvenate each time in your family life.

H. Telem: Will it help me to rejuvenate my relationship with my partner?

M. Laitman: Without a doubt, even though all kinds of things happen in life. And it’s important not to close one’s eyes since we want to clarify the truth and even more than truth. So if it does happen it is clear where it happens and why it happens. Besides that as we understand from the wisdom of Kabbalah, sometimes a person is confused and sometimes he exits his Kelim and sometimes he is played with from Above in order to teach him who and what he is and to what extent that he isn’t in control of himself.

Sh. Peretz: I want to go back to the subject of unfaithfulness, since you presented it in such a way that if it were possible to relate to it in that way maybe more couples would stay together and maybe their relation to each other would be a little different. There is something that is stressful about the issue of possessiveness from the moment that you find your partner. But I don’t understand. You compared it to drinking a glass of water or eating.

M. Laitman: No I don’t compare. I say that it comes from the same principle, the desire for pleasure. Besides that nothing else exists in life.

Sh. Peretz: At my level with myself, it really comes from the same principle. Just like I want to enjoy food, I also want to enjoy other things. But it’s impossible to forget that on the other side there is someone who gets hurt. Meaning if one of the pair is unfaithful then the other one is hurt by that. And it could be that he will want to leave me.

M. Laitman: True, so take it into account.

Sh. Peretz: So that means that there is an additional layer to betrayal.

M. Laitman: I wanted to explain that all these things come from the same basis, nothing more than that. I don’t want to compare and I don’t want to say that it’s the same thing. Then you will say that “you ate somewhere else.” God forbid. But we are really speaking here that the Creator created the desire for pleasure, and the pleasure comes from Him, His Light.

That pleasure descends with the desire to enjoy from all the spiritual worlds until this world. And in this world the desires are within us and pleasure is clothed in all kinds of things around us. And only because of this do we exist and thus we exist.

When I was about eleven years old my mother was then involved in some research. She was a gynecologist. And she told my father about some research in the lab that she was doing about man’s fertility and also connected to that about man’s desire for sex. I remember that I heard this and was amazed. She said that they needed to do another series of shots and she hoped that those taking part in the research would receive a bigger desire for sex. And then later they would see how it influences forms of love. I was amazed and I asked, “Mother, they receive a shot and then love?” (this was from was from a child’s viewpoint influenced by romance novels, etc.) And she say, yes that’s the way it’s done.

Sh. Peretz: So it’s called a weak desire when someone is…

M. Laitman: No. But as if he goes to all kinds of sides and learns all kinds of things.

Sh. Peretz: He doesn’t find himself.

M. Laitman: Yes, yes. The society influences him in this way. He may have a strong desire to use sex in the correct way. This plays a big part for those persons. But I remember how I was amazed by all this: love and getting an injection for it and suddenly you are in love.

Sh. Peretz: On the subject of injections, just today I saw on the internet that they made some substance for women that is supposed to awaken those feelings.

M. Laitman: That’s a problem that exists in our society and I will tell you why. Today we live twice as long as a hundred years ago, or two hundred years ago. Back then, man lived to forty, fifty years old. This was the average, although there were others who lived longer. Today a man continues for 70-80 years, on an average in developed countries. And all our lives are just full of problems.

Sh. Peretz: Maybe because we enjoy so many kinds of things today, not just sex and food. There are a thousand and one kinds of pleasures so maybe that weakens.

M. Laitman: And besides that there are opportunities. They go on the internet, the street, and television. This tears the person apart.

H. Telem: So what tip would you give now to this woman who reached the age of 50 and her husband looks at other woman, to keep her husband at home and not go out.

M. Laitman: Tie him down at home, and then he won’t go out (laughing).

H. Telem: It’s on the rise here in Israel that more men now find younger women that attract them and they leave their wives.

M. Laitman: They completely leave their family?

H. Telem: They completely leave and go to live with a younger woman.

M. Laitman: I can accept everything, inappropriate behavior here and there as we are all human beings. But that responsibility to leave a family and leave children is just beyond everything. It just can’t be that a person leaves his family because of some passion. And also I don’t understand why it comes to that. We don’t educated people correctly. It shouldn’t interfere with one’s family life, to a woman who you lived with for so many years and you have children and grandchildren with. You are already in your fifties.

H. Telem: It’s another basis, you say. It doesn’t belong?

M. Laitman: It seems to me that it is simply fashionable and that society accepted it.

H. Telem: I’m “a man.” I have a young woman.

Sh. Peretz: It compliments the ego. You can’t deny it. When a man finds a young woman, it’s fun for him and it’s fun for the ego. Why wouldn’t he prefer her over a woman of 50-60?

M. Laitman: It doesn’t seem to me that men can really seriously connect so easily.

H. Telem: To someone new, to someone young, to someone with a different outlook.

M. Laitman: To go out and have a good time, that’s something different; but to leave a wife and children and grandchildren and tear up all these things. It could be though, that there are some problems, something wrong in the family.

But to me it doesn’t seem a reason. The man in any case becomes attached and the woman for him is like a mother in some ways. And if she behaviors correctly it doesn’t seem to me that he would leave.

H. Telem: So a man who was unfaithful once, should the wife forgive him?

M. Laitman: I am not saying to forgive him or not. I think he should maintain the family framework. That's the most important. Without that, in general the society will begin to collapse, unless there are those kinds of activities “on the side” anyway. We are living in a modern society. We can’t close our eyes to it, but at least we can try to fight so that it doesn’t cause a crisis in the family.

N. Navon: Unfaithfulness yes, divorce no. (laughter)

H. Telem: No. (laughter)

Sh. Peretz: (laughter) You see how men look for something to grasp on to.

M. Laitman: I am not saying yes to unfaithfulness, but for sure no to divorce.

N. Navon: Why? What is against nature here? It’s a law of nature that I have a greater desire, as you say, according to the same principle, “Excuse me my dear wife, but I have someone now who can fulfill my desire more.”

H. Telem: More tasteful than you are.

N. Navon: “Someone fulfills my desire more. I am simply leaving.” What’s wrong with that?

Sh. Peretz: The children are hurt by that.

N. Navon: Why is this not appropriate?

M. Laitman: We have to reach public opinion so that it condemns things like that.

I don’t know about unfaithfulness. It is in the nature of a man to search for something new, like football, like trips like, letting off steam and outbursts. It’s like a small child who is big, but anyway it is within his personality, within his nature.

N. Navon: I’m not sure that the women who are listening now, will be glad to hear that.

M. Laitman: Just a moment. Everyone knows that we are not playing here. I didn’t come here to talk about nice things and to present myself as righteous and that I have never heard anything in my life. But I am speaking about what happens. There are statistics and we are speaking about them.

H. Telem: We know that about a man.

M. Laitman: Yes, and so we must recognize this phenomena and see how we can take care of it. We can take care of elevating public opinion to knowing that divorce is a bad thing, because divorce affects children and grandchildren and the family unit. Also in families with divorce, the children also follow by divorcing later on. They get examples from this. In doing this we ruin society. And if here or there some unfaithfulness occurs, to teach the partner that in some way if not to halt it, then to swallow it. What else can be done?

N. Navon: Why not admonish that also? Let’s admonish also unfaithfulness at this same time.

M. Laitman: “To make a catch of a multitude is not catching.” I don’t think that it is possible.

H. Telem: You are already going into ethics.

M. Laitman: To preserve the family unit is something acceptable to everyone. What about their children and grandchildren? You leave a family after being together 50 years, 20 or 30 years. Each person can look at it as disgraceful. You’re a “man,” you leave your family? But I am a man when…

H. Telem: When he’s with a young woman.

M. Laitman: Yes. That’s something else.

H. Telem: Impossible to compare.

M. Laitman: There are such nuances here that there’s nothing to do done. We need to check and distinguish between things and make decisions. And what is possible to correct, at least to do that.

Sh. Peretz: I want to ask. It is constantly said that men are unfaithful. That it’s more natural for men. First of all, today women also are unfaithful.

M. Laitman: With whom?

Sh. Peretz: That is actually a good question. (laughter). Let’s say in most cases that it’s with available girls.

H. Telem: According to statistics, no. Men are unfaithful with married women, which is forbidden.

M. Laitman: We are no longer speaking about what is forbidden in the Torah. I hope that is clear.

Sh. Peretz: What is forbidden in the Torah? That it is forbidden to go with a married woman?

M. Laitman: Yes. But we are speaking here of the phenomena itself. Again, it all depends. A man is the result of the society. We can never blame a person. I wasn’t born with my attributes. Everyone is discovering today about hormones and genes. I’m a thief because I have this gene for that. All of this is from within my internal attributes.

But I also went to kindergarten, to school, to the army. I was part of the society. And then I wonder why I’m like I am. Is it not from the society I was part of?

Sh. Peretz: But it’s the easiest thing to say that I am influenced by the society.

M. Laitman: No. But it is true. A person dresses, thinks, behaves according to the society.

Sh. Peretz: If I want to go out and steal something, I can say to myself, “No don’t do that. It’s not the right thing to do.”

M. Laitman: A person is the product of the society. First of all, this is agreed upon by everyone. If you don’t agree then it’s worthwhile for you to examine this. Wherever I go and later leave, I will already operate according to what I learned there. We all receive examples- all the time we receive them. I have a thousand examples of behavior in my head and each time I am in some situation, I find a similar example of behavior that I learned or saw and according to that, I behave. This is the way we are built. You can say no but our physiology is this way. This is the way we operate. You go into a certain place and immediately, according to where you are you begin to behave according to how you saw in the movies or some other place or even at home.

First of all we have to reach the public opinion that the society will relate to a person in a certain way so that it will criticize him for certain things but on the other hand will not criticize him for other things. It should be clear. Thus, I think that the crisis in the family, with divorce is a real catastrophe.

Sh. Peretz: I wanted to go somewhere else with the previous question. It is said that usually it is the men who are more unfaithful, although, there are also unfaithful woman. If we look at the Torah, we see a model of…

M. Laitman: A woman according to her nature is bound to a man.

Sh. Peretz: OK. Correct. A woman is more tied.

M. Laitman: It is also stressed in Kabbalah. But I simply can’t use here Kabbalistic expressions. However, a woman is tied to a man. He becomes hers. She feels that she belongs to him and here really is a problem. As you said, according to statistics women surely don’t commit adultery to the same extent.

H. Telem: On the internet at least that what’s I read. That everyone thinks that men are more unfaithful but who are they unfaithful with? It turns out that they are unfaithful with married women.

Sh. Peretz: But just a moment. When I look at the Book of Genesis, there we find the first man and woman. The one whose name was portrayed as an adulteress, temptress, cunning and the one who broke the rules was Eve. And Adam is holy, yet tortured. He is portrayed as being enraptured and seduced and he doesn’t exactly know what to do. What should we actually learn from that?

M. Laitman: It’s hard for me to bring it down to our world because it is not a man or a woman. Here it is spoken about spiritual forces of man, the bestower and woman, the receiver. These are two forces that are found in nature, which are actually the Creator and the creation. It describes the connection between them and how the creation actually takes the pleasure from the Creator and is filled with It and then becomes an egoist. This is what happened, the crisis, the sin, and the fall down to this world of the souls, etc. We can’t take an example from there since it completely tells about our spiritual roots that are very, very high.

Sh. Peretz: And it doesn’t talk about a man and a woman.

M. Laitman: God forbid. We are from the same Adam (the first man) and Eve but from these spiritual forces that slowly, slowly materialized and reached this world and we are from this world but after thousands of stages.

Sh. Peretz: But we do see that a woman are more curious. They are more likely to go to places where men usually don’t rush to go to.

M. Laitman: Something is left of the character but there it was spiritual character. It was completely of bestowal, with love for others, completely outside of itself. Here with us it is the opposite. Both our man and woman are egoists. And also Eve as you say was “completely not all together.” That feminine part that is called, “Eve,” wanted to be more holy and to ascend more and thus it wanted to mate with the male part and to bring their ascent to the Creator’s level. And this is what is written and thus it was understood by these forces, to these souls, that by their joining, between them they would reach the achievement of giving pleasure to the Creator, to bestowal.

Sh. Peretz: So she just didn’t do anything bad.

M. Laitman: She didn’t do anything bad here, and certainly not with intention.

Sh. Peretz: Would it be possible to say that she actually brought development?

M. Laitman: She brought development. Adam by himself wasn’t able to commit that sin, and she was able to do it. It came by some mixing of the Creator so that they would sin. Since all the descending has to reach our world and from here, from this world, we have to now return to their level. So don’t make a comparison. Don’t take any examples from there at all.

Unless by learning the wisdom of Kabbalah, we then learn how they descended, those two roots, and arrived at this world and then we know as we learn the nature of all the levels and also our nature. In general, it’s impossible to understand anything about this world of ours if we don’t learn about spirituality. We see how science has failed at all these things, although, it helps us a little in the meantime here and there but then later it is discovered that it is the opposite and not helpful.

H. Telem: I want to go back a little. I am a regular woman, now single, and looking for a man.

What attributes should I look for in a man? That’s my first question. And is there such a thing as a soul mate? Someone who complements me? Is there something mystical that I should be searching for? Or simply with a cool head, I need a good man, who will be a good provider, a good father, one who I am a little attracted to. How does a single woman today look for a man? We see that they don’t succeed in finding a man. Why?

M. Laitman: Because the society confused them, and they are looking after standards that the society tells them about a man, some kind of macho or brilliant in something, some smooth talker or something and not according to what their own nature tells them that they need.

There is a law of all the reality, of all nature in general both spiritual and corporeal which is called, “The law of equivalence.” Also on the mental level, physiology, psychological, on all levels: inanimate, vegetative, animate, speaking, it doesn’t matter where or what, the more one is similar to the other, the more successful.

H. Telem: They succeed?

M. Laitman: They succeed more.

Sh. Peretz: Oh, not opposites attract?

M. Laitman: No. Opposites attract only to play and fool around. But not more than that.

Sh. Peretz: But for stability in couples, it preferred that they be similar in attributes.

M. Laitman: Only that.

Sh. Peretz: That’s interesting, since usually people look for the opposite. The quiet ones look for noisy ones.

M. Laitman: That’s as if to complete itself. And it could be that it matches in something, but I would say to be careful here.

Sh. Peretz: Because in the long run, it could be these gaps suddenly could be uncomfortable.

M. Laitman: Correct. Yes.

H. Telem: What if we digress a little. If we go back a little, let’s look at the issue of all the single mothers of today. People are simply disgusted and a woman says, “Ok, enough, I don’t have the strength with these men. I’ll have a child now by artificial insemination.” They go and bring sperms from someplace.

Sh. Peretz: This is the top of fashion today.

H. Telem: This is also something the society should oppose?

M. Laitman: The society is ours. We can tell it what to oppose and not to oppose. It no longer has any foundation or basis. Things like those are not acceptable to me.

But I can’t tell a woman who has reached the age of 40-50 who wants to give of herself, to be a mother, to realize the woman in her. First of all she is free, and living in our “modern world.” So at least she does this, but the act itself is sick. It is not a normal phenomenon. Thus I say, the important thing is to maintain the family. From that we will succeed with the rest. If I were able, in the first stage, I would go to the public and start a huge argument about what is happening to us in regards to families, and if I was able, I would like to reach a consensus, to educate every family that wants to divorce, except for those situations where nothing else can be done about them.

Sh. Peretz: If there is violence in the family, I imagine that this is another issue.

M. Laitman: Then one needs to handle the violence or treat it. There are those kinds of cases. But (in general) not to enable divorces, but to be against them. We see that after a few months, or a few years, everything settles down, everything passes, and life continues. Anyway, the value of the children and grandchildren is worthwhile in comparison to the unpleasant things that sometimes happen.

H. Telem: We see that people today give up. They despair and give up and say, “OK, I’m not going to get married.” Does a woman need to get married?

Sh. Peretz: There are those whose destiny is, “You will never get married. Don’t waste your time. Go be something.”

M. Laitman: What grandmother said this?

Sh. Peretz: There are people who feel this way. They say, “Enough, I guess this is my destiny.”

H. Telem: There are people who just give up. What do you say to them?

M. Laitman: This is a problem of the society. Society has to take care of this. Just like when it was like this in Judaism. It was always like that, matchmaking and such. Not one girl remained single. Especially in Judaism, as opposed to other cultures, with our religion and culture, this worry always existed that a girl needed to get married.

Sh. Peretz: She needed to get married and have children and to realize her femininity.

M. Laitman: The society always took care of this, not even the family, but really the society.

Sh. Peretz: Do you think there’s a chance to reconstruct that nowadays? There are many matchmaking sites but I don’t think that this has the same effect as when once there were matchmakers who would match people. There are a lot of people who are alone, simply alone.

M. Laitman: That is social consciousness, consciousness that we ourselves are ruining. If the family collapses in a nation then the nation…

Sh. Peretz: All the generations after this are already ruined.

M. Laitman: That’s it. We have a special task for the nation of Israel but at the corporeal level, we must maintain the family framework and give it the highest value. First of all this is what the nation and country must be concerned about—to have complete families with two parents.

Sh. Peretz: I would like to return to the matter of singles, before marriage, yes. We would like to feel what the real nature of man says and what the nature of woman says. There’s a sentence that says for a woman to be beautiful and to keep silence. As if that’s what a man wants. For a woman to just sit there and be pretty and smile from time to time or that men like a woman with strength, with energy, that do things, that move things around.

H. Telem: What do men like? When a woman wants to attract a man how should she behave? Should she be pretty? Should she keep quiet? Should she show strength?

M. Laitman: (laughter). First of all, according to what are you asking me?

Sh. Peretz: According to one who knows the nature of men.

M. Laitman: But men are also not in accordance with nature today. So what I say is not useful.

Sh. Peretz: Yes. That’s also correct.

M. Laitman: We need to study our nature from our roots. If we get close to them, then it’s certain that we will feel good. According to our roots, the man loves loyalty in a woman. She completes for him the lack of a mother since a woman becomes a mother, while a man doesn’t. He doesn’t give birth. He remains a big child within that meaning. And then the woman must complete this for him. If he receives this from her, then this is a big completion. She needs to be clever to accomplish this.

H. Telem: She has to take care of him?

M. Laitman: It’s not only to take care, but a kind of radiating some kind of warmth that he used to get from his mother. She has to learn from his mother things that he loves about his mother, and in some way to show him that. In this way she ties him to her, like a baby to his mother.

Sh. Peretz: Using tricks.

M. Laitman: It’s not tricks; it’s nature.

Sh. Peretz: Yes, women are not especially aware of this. On the contrary they think that the worse you treat him, the more he’ll want you. There’s a book about it, Why Men Love Woman Bitches.

M. Laitman: To have this kind of bitch at home? I don’t understand. How is that possible? That’s worse than..

Sh. Peretz: According to what you say it’s not really what a man is looking for.

M. Laitman: I don’t think so.

Sh. Peretz: Maybe sometimes, for the fun of it.

M. Laitman: Sometimes they quarrel and from that comes a special taste because they discover something new and then…

H. Telem:They make up.

M. Laitman: Yes. It’s like we spoke about; concealment and revelation.

Sh. Peretz: Games.

M. Laitman: Yes, but certainly not to acquire through bad. In general all married life strengthens only through concessions. Simply let’s learn in our married life together that you will give concessions to me and I will do the same for you. You shout something to me, and suddenly I feel that I am shouting and you are silent.

And then I feel in that silence how much you are holding in, and in that you are also giving me an example, and also the opposite.

H. Telem: Also, in something that I think I’m really right about?

M. Laitman: According to my nature, I am very irritable and light up quickly. Before we moved to Israel and before I found Kabbalah, I admit that during the first few years my wife taught that to me; specifically these examples. She has a natural, internal wisdom in that she controls herself. But in this restraint there is shame in it. I feel shameful. This would very much stop me.

And then I would see how I was acting, and then I would calm down. It wasn’t the matter of calming down but I would stop myself. So by mutual concessions, only by yielding is it possible to build big things. It comes from the wisdom of Kabbalah.

“Be silent and rise in my desire,” (Be silent and rise in thought). Meaning, as much as a person suppresses and is silent, in that he builds Kelim (vessels) especially for concealment in order to discover the beauty in new relationships. Try it.

H. Telem: He actually stops himself, limits himself, in order to receive something new, something else.

M. Laitman: She stops and I stop. It’s as if there is nothing else to say. There is something to say but we are halting ourselves.

H. Telem: So there is now something new.

M. Laitman: That’s it. And here we discover that the things we speak we did not discover about each other in the anger, from this there are new things that we can discover in the closeness of one another, on top of this. You understood this, correct?

Sh. Peretz: As if because you didn’t react as you wanted, then something new comes out of this? Is this the meaning?

M. Laitman: We’ll open a for couple relations. They are all examples from Kabbalah. That’s the way we should behave with the Creator.

Sh. Peretz: What did you say, “Be silent and thus rise to My desire.” (Be silent, and thus rise in thought)?

M. Laitman: Yes, it is known from the Torah that our satisfaction, the restriction, the screen on which we later build the Returning Light, this turns into a Kli. In this way we grow in spiritual levels. In this way we produce new Kelim and in the same way at home we can do the same with our quarrels.

N. Navon: New Kelim meaning new desires that broaden? What are new Kelim?

M. Laitman: You ascend to another level, to a level in relation to her. At a certain level you quarreled. You restricted it without clarifying those things and without continuing them. You begin something new. You don'tdelete. It remains, but on it. No, delete is not good.

H. Telem: Because we already are acquainted with the quarrel.

M. Laitman: Yes.

N. Navon: They say, let’s open a new page.

M. Laitman: A new page is the problem because they erase it and don’t want to remember the things. No. It is written, “Cover all crimes with love;” there are crimes, there is the covering— Restraint, mutual yielding—and then comes a new love.

H. Telem: Something new is created suddenly in the relation between them. Besides that, in the corporeal meaning, a woman has to keep herself pretty, and esthetic. Is that important to the husband? Or does he accept her as she is.

M. Laitman: No. He will never accept her in a form that is not pleasing to him. Let’s not talk about attractive, but pleasing.

H. Telem: Esthetic.

M. Laitman: Yes. A man is always looking for something that shines, but not in a gross way, but in some way. It was to be pleasant to his eyes.

H. Telem: So a woman has to look after herselffor her man.

M. Laitman: Not keep herself really, but not to look like some floor rag. Also, the Torah asks that of a woman that she take care of herself and looks all right. It does not have to do with beauty. It belongs to a nice design.

H. Telem: She needs to look proper.

M. Laitman: Yes, it’s not important about her body and face, but she has to look normal.

Sh. Peretz: You said that they aren’t especially attracted to beauty, but in many places on the internet I see that men are very enthusiastic about beauty.

M. Laitman: That’s not true.

H. Telem: Also, society brainwashes us about this?

M. Laitman: It’s not correct that the society brainwashes. It’s not exact. Beauty is not in external form. It’s not that I’m saying that beauty is an internal thing. I am saying that there are many examples. If we weren’t in such a confusing society, we would see that to every taste there is a beauty to suit it and they are very, very different.

Sh. Peretz: Each woman has some kind of beauty.

M. Laitman: I am sure.

Sh. Peretz: If she only knew how to cultivate it.

M. Laitman: I am sure that if she knew how to bring out her internality, and not to color herself with all kinds of examples from TV, then she will find it. Also, from the side of nature we are thus build, that as a result of that each woman has a man who wants her.

H. Telem: So is there a thing that each person has his matethat“each pot has its cover?”

M. Laitman: Yes, yes.

H. Telem:You simply have to find him.

M. Laitman: “Find him” is not to look in the whole world. To find him, not to wait. To wait, then you can wait until the age of 50.

H. Telem: So what should one do?

M. Laitman: “To find” is called to develop herself.

In this world we find ourselves in a huge field of powers; of let’s say, magnetic power. And we are attracted with our inner potential, which is like an electrical charge, to this place where she feels there is something opposing her. If a woman develops her personality a little more, then she feels even from far off where this personality is that exactly suits her.

H. Telem: That is, she will connect.

M. Laitman: Everything only depends on the internal development of the personality of each and every one. And it can be a very simple person. It doesn’t matter, but that it is “him.” Our problem is that we are flooded in a sea of information, examples, and lies from television. Everyone wants to appear with the same face, the same cut, and the same look. And so it turns that the man looks around and doesn’t see any difference. Everything is the same.

Sh. Peretz: So you’re saying that someone who finds himself single at an advanced age is because he isn’t connected to his real personality and thus he can’t find someone who suits him?

M. Laitman: Yes.

H. Telem: And then we have the “heterosexual” man, who is a little feminine, who understands a little, and wants to sit at home and take care of his children, etc. Is this also a malfunction of the society?

M. Laitman: That’s a malfunction of the society and I also think that it’s a lack of confidence on the part of the man, and there are a lot of internal psychological things here. We don’t build the person, not in school, and even less so in kindergarten or in the family. We give him information so that he’ll go to work later in some hi tech.

H. Telem: So he builds an image that he sees on television, or in the movies or on the internet.

M. Laitman: Yes, we don’t sculpt him so that he becomes a person, and he becomes himself and continues to be himself. And then he gets all kinds of examples, from his mother, and from others. And it’s convenient for him to be there with his kids?

Coming back to your previous question, it's definitely a big malfunction. I hope that finally the society will begin to recognize this and to change.

H. Telem:How can I see good attributes in my mate? You tell me to give in. Much of the time, after a woman gets married and has children, she sees only the defects in him and that he’s a child, a baby. What is my role as a wife who wants to keep her man? What should a wife do in order to see him as great? How do I appreciate him and praise him? That’s actually what I want; what I am looking for. How do I do this?

M. Laitman: Why are you asking him to jump off the roof and do some tricks for you, and be some hero?

H. Telem: Because he’s a man. (laughing)

M. Laitman: To be like Schwartnegger or someone like that or a smart student like Einstein? You are also demanding from him to be according to some external standard.

H. Telem: Yes (nodding in agreement).

M. Laitman: You need to relate to him as he is and to love what he is. You stick some images on him, saying, “you’re not this one or that one, or this or that, so who are you?”

You measure him. Are you also like that (turning to Sh. Peretz)?

Sh. Peretz: No. I think that this is social problem in some ways.

H. Telem: Of course, we also want that he will bring a lot of money….

Sh. Peretz: You come with certain patterns in mind. But I think that it is also concerning ourselves. Since we don’t know ourselves enough, thus we also relate to others in the same way.

M. Laitman: Correct. We clothe him in all kinds of forms. And according to how he fits the pattern she sees if he suits her or not. They have a mold in mind and then they throw it away and that’s it.

From where is this template? Who gave it to me? Some stupid people who don’t know anything. They only ruin my life. That’s the problem. If the society had been the correct one, and had made me into a person so I would understand what I need in life, then I wouldn’t use the templates. Also, for myself and also for the person I want to connect to for the rest of my life.

Sh. Peretz: So actually Kabbalah gives the person development as he is, the most authentic, the most realistic, the closest to himself?

M. Laitman: Correct. Here is the system that first of all takes from you all the ..

H. Telem: Worries…

M. Laitman: Worries? (Laughing) All the coverings, all your lies. You begin to understand who you are and what you are. And accordingly your relation to others changes.

H. Telem: And I need to cultivate the relationship on the corporeal level? I need once a week to go out with him and have a good time with him?

M. Laitman: I think that you demand him to do that. The woman takes the man out of the house to have a good time.

H. Telem: The question is whether or not we need this, or is it enough that we have children and we’re together, partners. Sometimes it seems that all that invention called “couple-relations” is something of this society. Is there really such a thing? Is all this so called “couple relations” about mutually taking care of children, bringing home money, buying a house, cooking together, and doing things? Or do I really need to take him out to a movie, or restaurant to maintain our relationship?

M. Laitman: I, during all my life, at least once if not twice a year go with my wife for a week’s vacation. Even twice a year it is usually only us. Sometimes we take the children. If so, then we fly some place, rent a car, children, and even grandchildren, and take a week’s trip with the car. For example the Grand Canyon in the USA, but we only go in nature. Nothing else, because I don’t want to see cities or malls, only nature. This is what I do twice a year if possible. I take a holiday.

It is very important, because then we are really together. Also now, we have twice a week in the evening that we are together. We’re at home. She knows what to prepare for me and this has been kept through the years.

H. Telem: And on a daily basis, it is not essential?

M. Laitman: No. On a daily basis it is impossible today.

H. Telem: On a daily basis it is possible to see each other for a short time. It’s not like it was once that the man should be home in the afternoon and be next to his wife.

M. Laitman: And it’s also impossible. I work around the clock, beginning the lessons at 3 a.m. It’s not for the woman. I don’t feel that I am giving her these hours but for me it is very important. By this, I feel that I have a home; a place and someone who prepares for me that evening the pasta that I love with a glass of the kind wine that I love. And then after that a nice dessert with rum that I love, that she knows so well. For me it’s a ceremony and also for her. And then we sit together and together drink wine and eat these things. And a few hours pass.

I think one should plan things like this in advance and that they be compulsory. Only to be missed if I have to travel to some committee or some event abroad.

Sh. Peretz: I have a question about another subject. Who needs to choose who? Sometimes both the man and the woman are attracted to each other, but bottom line is that it the man who does the choosing and who wants. And if it’s the woman who wants the man then it won’t work out. Only if it’s the man who chooses and wants. I don’t know, but sometimes I have that feeling that it’s as if the man does the choosing.

M. Laitman: Actually the man chooses. He certainly is the one. Also, for the woman there is this quality that she gets used to the man, that she is attracted to the man who chooses her.

Sh. Peretz: If he chose her and even if she doesn’t really like him, she suddenly will want him?

M. Laitman: Yes.

H. Telem: That’s a spiritual root that a man picks a woman?

M. Laitman: Yes, of course.

Sh. Peretz: So it’s worthwhile for a man to be stubborn if he wants a woman?

M. Laitman: Again, if you go down to our world with our conditions, there are no rules anymore.

H. Telem: Everything is ruined.

M. Laitman: Yes.

Sh. Peretz: If a woman is “turned on” by someone who really doesn’t want her, then the chances are that it won’t succeed?

M. Laitman: I also don’t understand when you say that the woman is “turned on” by someone. The truth is that it isn’t in the nature of the woman. It comes from some kind of competition or something. A woman by her nature can’t be “turned on” by some man.

I am sorry but that’s the way it is. Actually it is in nature that the woman enjoys the wooing of the man and then to see if yes or no and how. But as it were, she begins only when the man starts with her.

H. Telem: That’s the way we got married.

Sh. Peretz: Have you forgotten? The man courted us, and whoever, we were turned on by it, although, in the end they didn’t want us.

M. Laitman: And it’s good that he didn’t want you. If you marry a man that you have to convince, what kind of thing is that?

Sh. Peretz: But once it seems I heard you say that there is a kind of trick that a woman can buy presents and thus buy the heart of a man. Is there such a thing? Or is this concept only in spirituality?

M. Laitman: It all is possible, but it depends on who the man is. Basically he needs to want her, to see her as desirable. And through this a woman receives importance and is willing to compromise. A woman gets accustomed to this and responds to it. But this is something else. As you mentioned, she gets “turned on” by someone; that’s something from the movies.

Sh. Peretz: You’re saying that it’s not real?

M. Laitman: It’s not real.

H. Telem: We also get turned on by all kinds of successful men and inside of them it’s like an exploded balloon.

M. Laitman: Correct.

Sh. Peretz: Usually they are suffering from complexes.

H. Telem: So, actually today when a man wants a woman, she has to think twice and say to herself there’s some signal, some call here from Above that I should go with him.

M. Laitman: Not a call from Above. She shouldn’t confuse herself.

But I think that both today, as always, it is the man who shows interest in a woman and the woman usually agrees to this. If she rejects this and that about him, then there is already some malfunction. It can’t be. Usually if a man relates to a woman nicely, he wins her over. He doesn’t need to be good looking or anything.

It's important that he treats her well. She doesn’t need more. It’s instead of love.

You are looking at me. (talking to Shelly Peretz) I caught you. I caught that look. Instead of love.

Sh. Peretz: What instead of love?

M. Laitman: Treatment. Good treatment, nice. That he simply treats you well.

Sh. Peretz: But doesn’t that cause love?

M. Laitman: From your side it will be love. From his side it could be good treatment. Again, look here at the things that don’t require love as you mention. Good relations. That’s all. And with that you can buy. There’s nothing better.

Sh. Peretz: It’s clear that the best thing is when one treats you well. What is good about loving someone and not treating him well? There’s this thing that people tell you, “Go on, make a move on him. You are interested in him and like him? Show him your interest.” You don’t think that is appropriate? Might that even repulse the man?

M. Laitman: No. It could be that the man doesn’t understand or actually wants you or is embarrassed. Maybe he is naturally a little shy.

H. Telem: You need to encourage him.

M. Laitman: Yes, that’s something else. Today there are no matchmakers as there were.

Sh. Peretz: It’s harder.

M. Laitman: Maybe it’s even harder on the one hand. In any case, it is worthwhile to immediately discover the relation, if it is wanted or not.

H. Telem: If it's not wanted, don’t get involved.

M. Laitman: The world has become very simple, so also act accordingly. But again, chose someone who treats you well. By well it doesn’t mean he begins to show off and give presents, and take trips and what else, but..

H. Telem: With respect; to treat you with respect.

M. Laitman: That is very important to a woman. You don’t need more.

Sh. Peretz: What is the meaning of well, to treat me well.

M. Laitman: Well… that he takes care of you. What else does a woman need? Something else?

Sh. Peretz: Money (laughing).

M. Laitman: For a woman, money is not important at all.

H. Telem: Money isn’t important? Today we see that woman look for money. They chose a man according to that.

M. Laitman: Instead of a good man, a rich man who is not good?

H. Telem: A poor but good man, and a rich and not good one.

M. Laitman: That’s what they say. That’s preferable. I don’t think that wealth can take the place of the treatment. It’s not possible. It’s at a completely different level than good treatment and even further away from love. It’s impossible to buy a cage of gold and be happy.

Sh. Peretz: So what makes a woman happy? What is she actually looking for in a man?

M. Laitman: A woman looks for a secure home, for warmth, stability, security for herself and her children. That’s all. According to the nature of a woman, that is what she is looking for.

H. Telem: So actually our message to men and women is if you connect to yourself at the correct and true level, then you…

M. Laitman: At an internal level. You won’t be mistaken; you will find the correct relationship that will be successful.

Thus I am sure that here the wisdom of Kabbalah as a general system for the correction of the world, first of all can correct for us the matter of family relations.

Sh. Peretz: I think that is the most felt. When you look today at what is happening among the singles, you see that there is no glue that holds together relations between the man and the woman; none. She can be pretty; he can go out with 200 other girls, all kinds of things. But something that ties them besides that? There is nothing.

Everything is completely unstable. I think it is felt very much. I also see it in girls that are of the best quality, successful, studying, good girls but there is nothing that connects them to a man. How is it possible to bring this message to people?

M. Laitman: A man who deals with spiritual development already brings to the woman the part of him that he attains from spirituality. He doesn’t bring her only his salary. He brings her a spiritual part, eternal part. She gains this from him. He brings her a spiritual salary. Through her he is pushed more into studies, and he brings her the correction of the soul. Through him she earns the world to come. These are things that have no proportion to the other things we talked about. If a couple, the man, or even both of them deal with their internal development, with this they can buy worlds.

Sh. Peretz: How do you explain that to a cynical person from Tel Aviv, who went out with 700,000 girls, and none of them appeal to him and there is all that war between men and women. How do you explain to him suddenly that there is something spiritual?

M. Laitman: All in all people are looking for pleasure. Here we return to the first sentence of our conversation. They are looking for enjoyment. Instead of everything else I want some kind of pill and to enjoy. Just leave me alone, since in that way I have a concentration of pleasure. That’s it. So if you explain to him that instead of 700,000 girls, he will have one girl.

H. Telem: And endless pleasure.

M. Laitman: And endless pleasure. Why should he care? Will there be pleasure? There will be, but he won’t have 700 girls.

Sh. Peretz: Do you think he will believe something like that; that there is endless pleasure?

M. Laitman: If he doesn’t believe, he should come and check it. Again, and I am not exaggerating, but the relation to life, and especially to the family and to the children is the most important thing. I am not saying that the person has to be such….

Sh. Peretz: OK. I understand.

M. Laitman: I am not saying, God forbid, not to look at others, or anything. In life everything happens. In everything, as I already mentioned, except to the relations in the family. That is the foundation of the nation.

That is the basis of society; it always was. Once they went to the market to buy women. A man might have twenty women, all kinds of situations, but a family framework (no matter what the form) was maintained. It could be a man with twenty wives, a few men and a clan. It doesn’t matter which form of a family. But this formation was maintained. Our problem is that we are simply going to destroy ourselves entirely, from the natural foundation.

Thus I say that this is very important. We hope with more and more people connecting to Kabbalah, that they will understand this foundation. Even without our programs, and without talking about it, as soon as they get some feeling of what spirituality is, they begin to have more appreciation to the family, i.e., wife, children, family. That’s it. That’s what I am talking about. That is very important. I hope that like the general system for correction, that it will bring us the correction for this.

N. Navon: Thank you Hagit, Shelly, Thank you Rav Laitman. Thank you all. Shalom.

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