From Age 6 To 9 [Part 2]
With Limor Soffer-Fetman, educational psychologist and psychotherapist, and
Eli Vinokur, education content manager for the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah Education & Research Institute
Eli Vinokur: We concluded our previous show somewhere around age 6, and only started to develop the topic. Now we are continuing that development. So Limor, let’s pick up where we left off.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: We’re at school.
Michael Laitman: Again.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Again, we’re there for many years. You described the first three years, and how the school actually looks in terms of activity hours. How many hours a day did you say it should operate?
Michael Laitman: All the time. Why should students leave school? Where will they go? Outside, we have no control over them, we don’t know what’s going on there, and after all, society is not ideal, yet, wherever they go, school, home, or outside, the environment will be a good influence.
So the safest way is to set up the school as a good environment for children’s development. Then they can stay there as long as possible, and come home only to take a shower, perhaps to eat, and go to sleep.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: That’s a very long school day.
Michael Laitman: I wouldn’t call it “a school day,” schooling is an antagonizing term. It’s just a long fun day.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: When school is fun, it will be a long fun day. But what about the connection with the parents, and the connection with the siblings?
Michael Laitman: They’ll have it in the morning before they leave and in the evening when they come back. That way, they won’t stay home, play with their computer, or watch all kinds of questionable programs on TV, where we can’t monitor what is happening with them. It’s best if they receive it at school in the right way, with rest, food, games and all.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: With food?
Michael Laitman: Of course. With food, with football, with everything. After all, how many hours does a child need to see his or her parents?
Limor Soffer-Fetman: It depends on the age.
Michael Laitman: How many hours can a mother devote to her children during the day? She can devote time at the end of the day, before the children go to sleep, it could be an hour, an hour and a half, even two hours.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: And what about homework?
Michael Laitman: There will be no such thing as “homework”; they do everything at school. The very concept of homework is totally despised; I remember that.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Yes, Nobody likes it. Wait, but practice is needed, so they could practice in the afternoon.
Michael Laitman: No. There is no morning or afternoon. You have long breaks in the middle, so you can run around and let loose in the schoolyard, then you go back to study, you eat, rest a little. It becomes the way we spend the day. You don’t feel it as school or as summer camp, it’s just...
Eli Vinokur: Are there vacations in such a school?
Michael Laitman: Vacations? Vacations from what? What would they be tired of? It should even be on weekends and holidays. Unless we also give the parents a plan.
Eli Vinokur: A plan?
Michael Laitman: Yes. And then the parents are invited to school be with the children and together they conduct a powerful lesson. Or, they could have a “Parent’s Day” or a “Children’s Day,” so everyone experiences the day positively and properly.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: So you are basically describing a very active day at school.
Michael Laitman: Yes, certainly. We must give that to children.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: And with a lot of guidance, studying the entire day. Do they study within that group of 10 you mentioned?
Michael Laitman: No. There are larger groups, smaller ones. Discussion groups are smaller, but when you go to the beach, to the woods, or to a museum you go with larger groups.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Or maybe all of them together?
Michael Laitman: Yes, yes.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: But where does the child belong? Today a child has a homeroom class and sometimes they divide into groupings, so where does the child belong, to that group of 10?
Michael Laitman: I don’t think so. They shouldn’t be confined. I think it needs to be very dynamic.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: So perhaps it’ll go by age groups?
Michael Laitman: Such groups are good so they have a place where they can express themselves. We need to show them that the whole school is truly one body, open to the entire world, to show that there are no boundaries. All of those limitations are not good; they later cause insecurity.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Why does that separation create insecurity?
Michael Laitman: Because kids get used to their group like they are used to their bed, their bathroom, their kitchen, it becomes “the child’s” and afterwards it’s very difficult, very frightening. Even adults have a hard time leaving home to travel somewhere, like when they go to college. Today, even 40 year old “children” don’t want to leave their mothers.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: And what about the connection between boys and girls? I understand they should study separately according to this approach, but where will there be a connection? Should there be certain shared activities?
Michael Laitman: I don’t think so.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Not at all?
Michael Laitman: I don’t think that up to age 9 it is at all possible to approach the connection between boys and girls. After age 9 we begin to talk to them about sex, relationships between the genders, life, continuation of life, about all the things that they previously couldn’t quite grasp for lack of observations as to what it’s for, how, why and all that. It’s still very premature.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: At the ages we are talking about, a lot of achievements are gained through competition: who is the best, who is the strongest, who is the fastest, or who knows the most.
Michael Laitman: The same goes here, only in inverse competitiveness: The winner is the one who helps others more than everybody else. But at the same time, it is a competition in the full sense of the word.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: What does that mean?
Michael Laitman: It means that what counts is intention: The intention should be that I want to excel in giving to others, giving to society.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Oh, and what about knowledge? What about knowing the most?
Michael Laitman: This is something else, and it’s not the most important. In such a society as the one we are discussing, we can never relate to anyone’s personal knowledge. We don’t give out grades.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Are there no grades in this school?
Michael Laitman: No grades. Didn’t we talk about that? Oh, pardon me; no grades, no tests, no nothing.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: No tests either?
Michael Laitman: None.
Eli Vinokur: Then how is a child evaluated?
Michael Laitman: The educator understands and knows each and every one of the children. After all, each educator has only 10 children to know.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: True, that really does allow getting to know them. But still, how are they evaluated, and for what? Should they be evaluated at all?
Michael Laitman: Yes. We need to eventually have them at a more or less equal level.
Eli Vinokur: But how is that done when each child has different strengths? Some are quick, some are more perceptive, some are smarter.
Michael Laitman: Each adds what he or she can to society, but we evaluate a child’s contribution to society. First and foremost, we are concerned with the type of person that comes out of the school, not with distinction in physics, math or what-have-you. It is not so important to us, and I believe that pretty soon it will not be important to humanity, as well.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: There seems to be a contradiction here: Today there is a very strong emphasis on achievements, even if at the other’s expense.
Michael Laitman: This is how we are destroying the society, because it truly is at the expense of the other. So we are doing it upside-down: for us, the achievement is one’s participation in benefiting society. This is our only measurement of a person; it is the only grade we give.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: What will that do to the motivation to study? Where is the incentive?
Michael Laitman: It is in contributing to society. But only after one has the drive to contribute to society should there also be a drive to study. It is fine to want to excel in physics, math, or in anything else, but first there must be a drive to contribute to society.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: So if someone is talented in physics or math, we won’t limit it, and the system will support such development.
Michael Laitman: We can help children develop from, say, 5th or 6th grade onward.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Is it because they will want to be the best they can for the benefit of society? Will that be the motivation?
Michael Laitman: Yes, only to the benefit of the society. They come from that angle and we constantly emphasize only that—that society wants them this way.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: That is very altruistic. In other words, I develop myself, but for the benefit of the society.
Michael Laitman: Even at work, I hope that in the society we will develop, people will not be given higher or lower salaries.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Rather?
Michael Laitman: Rather people will want to contribute to society so they will.
Eli Vinokur: In other words, according to what one needs, even if you contribute 100 percent?
Michael Laitman: Yes. If someone excels in math or has some other inherent distinction, and another does not, so what? One contributes to society by being a plumber, and the other contributes by being a professor or an executive of some sort. So?
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Okay, so each has his or her place, but what about the different extent of effort?
Michael Laitman: Each exerts according to one’s personality, according to one’s understanding of where and how to contribute to society.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: So is this not measurable?
Michael Laitman: Society appreciates according to effort. You are respected according to the efforts you make to contribute to society—not based on your work, but on the heart you put into it.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: How do you measure that?
Michael Laitman: You don’t measure it. Society will measure it once it is a spiritual society. Then it will measure that, understand it, and feel it.
Eli Vinokur: I still don’t understand where children will get the motivation to make greater efforts, knowing that they will receive the same as other children, who seem to make less of an effort.
Michael Laitman: In truth, in addition to society’s appreciation, the feeling that they are appreciated, they receive through education, and then discover that by that they are rewarded with pleasing the Creator, and that will be the reward.
Through one’s correct attitude and efforts in society, they will begin to discover the Creator and to feel the extent to which by that, they open the spiritual world for themselves. This is the reward.
Because at the end of the day, why do we exist? We explained to them at age six, when they asked about life and death, that we attain the state of infinity, the eternal and perfect life. So why have we now brought them to age 16 or 20 or even 30 or 40? So they would attain that.
Eli Vinokur: Where does it shift from a state of being only a slogan the child heard, to a condition that is actually experienced?
Michael Laitman: We help them actualize it throughout life. School never ends; we only switch the school framework with a social framework. Each time we are in an environment, we must participate in it. Just like in school, likewise in the environment of the human society. And that is how we will advance; it is how we will actually acquire the next world. “You shall see your world in your lifetime” ( Berachot 17a). That will be the motivation, to be rewarded with eternity and perfection.
That is why the salary or reward is not an issue, although it may be acceptable, coming from the society. But at the same time, you aspire for something higher.
Eli Vinokur: Let’s say we are building such a school now, while society is still not corrected. What is the right way to reward a child in order for him to move in the right direction?
Michael Laitman: I’ll let you in on a little secret. You need to take a break from your entire
world, plunge into these thoughts, into this approach, and after a few days you’ll begin to realize that there is a completely different system here for building human beings, for educating them. The education system is about building humans, not engineers or electricians or a banker. First and foremost, it is about building a human being.Otherwise, they will use everything they obtain through science to harm rather than to benefit.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: This is what we’re seeing today.
Michael Laitman: Yes. So if we first bring up human beings, then it will be worthwhile to develop science. Otherwise it will all be used to our disadvantage.
We need to constantly work only on the human being, throughout life. We need to build frameworks for people from age 0 to age 30, 70, up to 120, so that however long one lives, the environment will always exist and a person will constantly be in this integral communication with the entire environment. That way, the individual will affect society, and society will affect the individual in return. And in that mutual communication, people will find their spiritual life called “the human degree” within them, which is totally unrelated to the body.
That way, people will discover themselves as part of the spirit in them. And then the body may die, but they will still feel alive because they will have made contact with the environment, the human society, the universe, which is eternal.
This is what we cannot reveal today. Because of our isolation from the environment, from society, we cannot sense that.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Will it not make us lose the drive to excel that exists in children today?
Michael Laitman: To excel in what? In devouring each other, in stepping all over one another, or in helping one another?
Limor Soffer-Fetman: This is a horrible side effect that’s happening, but there are also fascinating achievements.
Michael Laitman: No, it’s not a side effect. I feel good if I am better than others. This is not a side effect.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: True, this is tightly connected.
Michael Laitman: I measure myself compared to others. In our system, I measure myself in relation to the amount of social benefit I can contribute. I don’t care if others know about it or not because I get a higher reward for it. Here a person analyses and judges him or her self. It’s an approach where you don’t need any judicial system, inspections, jails, or courts. The world simply becomes a good place. And we can achieve it if we use the educational system. Who doesn’t want to see his or her children doing well?
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Switching to another topic, what about children with developmental problems, or hyperactive children? It may be very difficult for them to sit in a discussion.
Michael Laitman: I don’t think it’s a problem. I think it’s a matter of how we arrange them; we should just give them more freedom of movement.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: There is no movement in school today, they just sit still.
Michael Laitman: This is exactly what we’re saying, that today there are no schools where we sit under a tree with 10 children and talk, then go into class to watch some film and talk about it, then maybe go out to play soccer or something, and then they eat together.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: There should be a lot of play at that age. Kids don’t stop playing at age 6.
Michael Laitman: So there should also be games there, where they help each other. There should also be songs and things that can draw children closer. You want to accustom them to being together, that it is good and reassuring, that it’s not like today’s school, which is more like a battlefield for children. They should even sleep at school.
Limor Soffer-Fetman: Sleep at school?
Michael Laitman: It depends on the age, but at age 6 or 7 or 8, they might need to take a nap for an hour or so in the middle of the day.
Eli Vinokur: So there should be time for rest.
Returning to the issue of children with special needs, children with problems such as retardation, should they be integrated into the framework?
Michael Laitman: No, I don’t think so. Hyperactivity is not a problem, and it’s possible to design special classes so they don’t disturb less hyperactive children.
Eli Vinokur: And children with special needs?
Michael Laitman: Children with all sorts of genuinely special problems also need classes designed for them. After all, we see that they need constant support also later in life. So even now we must give them the opportunity to develop as much as possible through the right educators and to teach them how to support and be supported by each other, because there are many among them who can help each other out.
Eli Vinokur: Unfortunately, we are coming to the end of the show. To briefly summarize, we talked about school being a school day which is a fun day, about making school so enjoyable that children will not want to take time off it because they will not want a vacation from fun, trips, and games. We talked about them staying until 6 p.m., talking to the parents a little and going to sleep. In the full day at school, they’ll also have time to rest. Also, the groups will not be solid and closed, but dynamic. There will be no homeroom separating children, only groups that help them develop self-confidence. They will constantly mingle and learn to be in that atmosphere.
Michael Laitman: They will use all their tendencies like envy, lust, and honor and all that, to develop them, but to the benefit of the society. That is, they will certainly express it, for sure.
Eli Vinokur: So when we talk about competition, we are talking about competing who contributes most to the society.
Michael Laitman: Yes, positive competition.
Eli Vinokur: It’s a 180 degrees shift compared to what is happening today.
Michael Laitman: And then competition is not forbidden, but everyone actually encourages such a person and he has something to be proud of. He can even get a medal for it.
Eli Vinokur: So this is how a child grows toward the goal we set: to achieve spiritual life. The child begins to measure him or herself in relation to others and thus, gradually comes out of the self. In fact, by that we are building a new system here...
Limor Soffer-Fetman: A school with lots of love, connectedness, and care.